Curse

Steps_Descending · Jul 16, 2007, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Some, maybe. Others, no.
Personally, I'd much rather have Norgu than many of my friends mesmering.

OH!!!!! Being a mesmer and the worst interupter you'll ever see (3/4 because of the player, 1/4 because of internet issues), I LOVED that one!

Surena · Jul 16, 2007, 08:17 AM // 08:17

It's funny how so-called competent PvP-Players state that RA is fine as it is and there shouldn't be any measures taken to remove the leaver problem, and once you log in you see them either sync in INT or play there for hours including frequent leaving. Bunch of retards.

freekedoutfish · Jul 16, 2007, 08:23 AM // 08:23

You just noticed the leavers and leachers?

DreamWind · Jul 16, 2007, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surena

It's funny how so-called competent PvP-Players state that RA is fine as it is and there shouldn't be any measures taken to remove the leaver problem, and once you log in you see them either sync in INT or play there for hours including frequent leaving. Bunch of retards.

Evidence mr name caller (notice how all name calling is coming from anti-leavers yet)? I consider myself a competent PvP player and I think changing RA for a few complainers is ridiculous. I am not a habitual leaver/syncer either. I just like the arenas as they are and think all the people complaining either need to bring me some hard evidence or go elsewhere.

This weekend in my opinion brought out the best in RA. I had more good matches this weekend than I have had in quite a while in RA. I found even LESS leavers this weekend than I ever have before (which weren't numerous to begin with). I didn't even play monk all weekend and I only had maybe 2-3 leavers all weekend after tons of games. A lot of monks came out for the event and there were less one sided smashings as well. Good event IMO.

Glider of chaos · Jul 16, 2007, 11:25 AM // 11:25

OK, lets try to analyze this interesting breed of GW players called "RA leavers".
1. goal: getting a glad point
2. way: getting a good team via multiple tries and instantly leaving every team they don't approve as one
3. motto: "cya noobs"
4. self justification: "We play to win!"/"We're Spikes!" (check this article to get a hold of this MtG specific lingo)
5. Reason for not playing in TA "It's way harder to get a glad point there" (~99% of them)
6. attitude: they don't give a damn about their team
7. why do they leave before the battle even starts: because they can go it and suffer no consequences or whatsoever.

So, I suppose that's everything we need to know about them.
Btw. here goes a small sidenote: why do people hate levers? Lets face the truth, leavers are not breaking any rules, they are just using the game features to their advantage trying to get all they can get in shortest time available. Well... the answer is simple. Because they don't care about other people, acting in arrogant and selfish way.
Ok, back for our primary target. For the starters I want to make a comment On "We play to win!" part. Well, basically it's true. They really do. But if they think that it equals to David Sirlin's "Play to win" from his "Playing to win" articles, they're terribly wrong. Sirlin spoke of path of self improvement, not of the path of least resistance. Next goes the "Spike" part. Do RA leavers belong to "Spike" type? I'm not so sure. "Spike" seeks challenge. RA leavers don't. They are more like "Timmy" IMO. They play to get this sweet feeling of overwhelming power by stomping over bad teams and clueless players.

So, after I delivered this nice kick to RA leavers ego, lets have a look at possible solutions mentioned in this thread (random order).

Lock the ability to enter RA for a fixed amount of time for the leaver
possible consequences:
Leavers number: it will decrease drastically
negative effect on people with real life issues and bad connection: fairly minor.
leaver behavior: probably some will try to get their team killed instead of just leaving. Some will just stand there waiting for everyone to die... or win. Most likely most of them will leave RA for good. Or will charge the enemy as fast as possible to get a fast win/loose and leave team.
possible outcome: seems to be more or less OK

Lock the ability to leave once until the match ends
possible consequences:
Leavers number: will decrease... a bit
negative effect on people with real life issues and bad connection: almost none
leaver behavior: they will stop mapping out and start doing it by closing GW and simulating disconnects
possible outcome: not all that great

Faction penalizing for leaving
possible consequences:
Leavers number: doesn't change
negative effect on people with real life issues and bad connection: fairly minor
leaver behavior: no change
possible outcome: no change at all

Glad point penalizing
possible consequences:
Leavers number: decreasing significantly
negative effect on people with real life issues and bad connection: painful
leaver behavior: lots of them will turn into suiciders/leachers
possible outcome: pretty bad

Remove glad points
possible consequences:
Leavers number: almost none left
negative effect on people with real life issues and bad connection: average (they loose a way to gain glad points)
leaver behavior: they will move to TA or disappear as a whole
possible outcome: seems to be more or less OK

So, bottom line: it's not like it is possible to fully protect players from different methods of abuse but it is possible to scale down some of them. Different methods have different drawback but still it's better to try and do something

I really hope ANet will take those options into consideration.

P.S. Whoa, that's quite a post I made… I wonder if it's worth separate topic

Milennin · Jul 16, 2007, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Nothing to do with the weekend, but I've just been doing some Random Arenas today, and more than 4/5 of the games there were leavers on my team.
Been playing Random Arenas few weeks and months ago and there was usually ~1 leaver in 1/10 games, plus a 50/50 chance to win a game. This has become ridicilous. I can't even play Random Arenas anymore without a fair, random 4 vs. 4 match most of the time now.

OK, just started some games.
1st game: 3 leavers on my party
2nd game: 3 leavers on my party
3rd game: 2 leavers on my party
4th game: 0 leavers, and lost the match
5th game: 2 leavers on other party
6th game: 0 leavers, and lost the match
7th game: 0 leavers, and lost the match
8th game: 0 leavers, and lost the match
9th game: 0 leavers, and lost the match
10th game: 3 leavers on other party
11th game: 0 leavers, and lost the match
12th game: 1 leaver on my party, and won the game

Longasc · Jul 16, 2007, 12:22 PM // 12:22

The Introduction of the Gladiator title is the freaking reason for this.

This is what happens when you add such questionable titles/rewards to a game after you already developed the basics. Without thinking of the consequences.

The other problem is: Does RA become more fun when you can get a title for playing there?

Not at all. People would simply not play there.

Can the problem be solved? Not sure if time penalties for joining would be a solution.

Just call it a flawed game mode no one should bother about. Just like Hero Battles, but that it is my opinion. The problem is the fun arena for casuals is not really fun.

So much about a game that was supposedly designed around PvP - the greatest lie about GW, it shows in so many variants and aspects of GW that it did not work out.

Gli · Jul 16, 2007, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

(notice how all name calling is coming from anti-leavers yet)

Of course, because the other party has no reason to resort to name calling. The anti-leavers aren't the ones exhibiting lazy, anti-social jackass behavior. The leavers are.

Navaros · Jul 16, 2007, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Of course, because the other party has no reason to resort to name calling. The anti-leavers aren't the ones exhibiting lazy, anti-social jackass behavior. The leavers are.

A case could be made that anti-leavers are indeed doing that to as much if not a greater extent than the leavers are. The Warrior anti-leaver with Meteor Shower and Charge doesn't give a darn about the players' fun that he is ruining by not bringing something to the table that has any hope of ever winning 10 in a row. Therefore he is being anti-social and exhibiting jackass behaviour against players who play for an actual purpose, ie: to win a Glad point.

MrFuzzles · Jul 16, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

Therefore he is being anti-social and exhibiting jackass behaviour against players who play for an actual purpose, ie: to win a Glad point.

I'm not sure if you made this example solely as a response to the earlier post, but it's really annoying being tagged as unwelcome in RA because we play for fun and not to grind titles.

I'll have more luck fighting alongside a warrior with meteor and dolyak signet than I will fighting alongside a guy who leaves because I'm a ranger.

Just because you think playing RA is a waste of time if you can't farm titles in it, doesn't mean the rest of us feel the same way. I don't see why your opinion should hold more weight than ours in regards to what the purpose of RA is "supposed" to be.

Ecklipze · Jul 16, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Leavers and Anti-Leavers that demand others should bend to their will, are as bad as each other.

DreamWind · Jul 17, 2007, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFuzzles

it's really annoying being tagged as unwelcome in RA because we play for fun and not to grind titles.

Its really annoying being tagged as unwelcome in RA because I play to win instead of playing for fun. Why is your view more important than mine, especially when I enjoy RA as it stands and am not complaining about it?

And I said elsewhere in another thread that I played easily over 100 games on the weekend and saw less than 10 leavers total...2-3 of those on my team. You guys must be playing a different game than I am because I wouldn't call that a problem at all.

MrFuzzles · Jul 17, 2007, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Its really annoying being tagged as unwelcome in RA because I play to win instead of playing for fun. Why is your view more important than mine, especially when I enjoy RA as it stands and am not complaining about it?

I'm not saying your view isn't, I'm only pointing out that both sides' opinion should hold just as much weight, just that the "if you don't play to grind titles, you're not doing it right" mentality doesn't apply to all of us. If we find leaving to be annoying, it is a problem. The only way you could claim that it's not a problem would be that our opinion doesn't matter.

I just tried getting some matches in before bed. It's off hours here in europe so RA wasn't exactly packed and you got the odd "no opposing team" dud. It was pretty much 4-5 teams worth of players wanting to play. Problem was, there were no monks around and everyone was constantly leaving trying to get one. It was kinda amusing getting a glad point with a leaver in my team about half the matches, since the other team always had 1 or more leavers. Out of the 11 matches we had, only 2 were symmetrical and those were 3v3's.

DreamWind · Jul 17, 2007, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFuzzles

If we find leaving to be annoying, it is a problem. The only way you could claim that it's not a problem would be that our opinion doesn't matter.

Honestly I find leaving annoying as well. I am simply in the "don't do anything stupid to RA" category because I don't think its a bad enough problem and I don't want to kill RA.

And you are right, I can't claim its not a problem if people are saying it is to them...unless of course I could prove it didn't exist which I can't. I can claim that the problem isn't large enough to warrant drastic changes though. These kind of claims would require research from multiple parties though and will never be thoroughly done. I'm just saying from my experience, that I don't think the problem is as horrible as some people claim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFuzzles

I'm only pointing out that both sides' opinion should hold just as much weight.

Fair enough. We should probably leave this thread at that.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jul 17, 2007, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Hmm what was that other arena called? Oh yeah "Team Arena" roffle.

Apok Omen · Jul 17, 2007, 05:27 AM // 05:27

An event being ruined by idiots reaping the rewards without doing anything? OH NO!!

...what else is new?

Gawa · Jul 17, 2007, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFuzzles

If we find leaving to be annoying, it is a problem. The only way you could claim that it's not a problem would be that our opinion doesn't matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Honestly I find leaving annoying as well. I am simply in the "don't do anything stupid to RA" category because I don't think its a bad enough problem and I don't want to kill RA.

And you are right, I can't claim its not a problem if people are saying it is to them...unless of course I could prove it didn't exist which I can't.... I'm just saying from my experience, that I don't think the problem is as horrible as some people claim.

FYI I have created a Poll about interest in possible RA changes in respects to Glad points. Have your statistical say here. Maybe this will help bring us all someway towards finding out some actual figures...

Intro:

There have been many threads about this, it would be useful to see the current actual statistical status of agreement for best solutions, in one place, so that something substantial and tangible may come of all the discussions. I believe this is more useful than a couple of very vocal people on either side of the 'argument' deciding what is and isnt fact, resulting in threads going round and round without actually getting anywhere definitively.

Premise - the current RA system is slightly flawed in such that some people can choose to circumnavigate the randomness that RA is supposed to include, for the purpose of attempting to gain points in a title track easier than should be possible.

Aim = improve enjoyment for players who don't like to experience intentional leavers, by reducing the incentive for people to leave, while balancing the reward for Title track advancment.

Poll - All Random Arena Suggestions to date - Glad Points / Leavers

Navaros · Jul 17, 2007, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFuzzles

I'm not sure if you made this example solely as a response to the earlier post, but it's really annoying being tagged as unwelcome in RA because we play for fun and not to grind titles.

Just because you think playing RA is a waste of time if you can't farm titles in it, doesn't mean the rest of us feel the same way. I don't see why your opinion should hold more weight than ours in regards to what the purpose of RA is "supposed" to be.

By the same token, anti-leavers should not think that just because they have fun playing for no point, that everyone else feels the same way and therefore is obligated to play with them. Anti-leavers pretty much always want their opinion to hold more weight than leavers' opinion in regards to what the purpose of RA is "supposed" to be.

Notice how the leavers did not start the uproar about this issue on the forums, or call the anti-leavers names/insult the anti-leavers all the time. Yet the anti-leavers started the uproar, and always call names to leavers.

Rather than doing all that, leavers just leave in-game and let the Warrior with Charge and Meteor Shower continue to play how he wants to in RA. Instead of trying to impose their will upon him.

That would seem to suggest on the whole, that the anti-leavers are the ones who far more often than leavers, think that their opinions have more weight and should be imposed on everyone else who does not agree with them.

glountz · Jul 17, 2007, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

Rather than doing all that, leavers just leave in-game and let the Warrior with Charge and Meteor Shower continue to play how he wants to in RA. Instead of trying to impose their will upon him.

No. By leaving, you are imposing your will upon him to fight 3v4. Thus, you impose a failing style of play to three others players. That's why you have an uproar and name calling to you.

Stop trying to reverse the situation.

Razz Thom · Jul 17, 2007, 02:41 PM // 14:41

AFAIK an exploit is knowingly using a failing in the system for personal gain(usually at the expense/discomfiture of others). The glad title is supposed to reward those players who demonstrate enough skill to earn it. Leaving repeatedly in RA could be very easily interpretted as an exploit to get a title without really earning it. It shows no skill to leave repeatedly until you find a team to suit your needs. You are exploiting the fact that the other team will be random thereby easier to defeat.

In the above example about the bad warrior, maybe it is his first trip into PvP land and doesn't know any better. he never will when all he has for constructive criticism is "l8r n00b". wow, that helped huh. anyway, repetative leaving = exploit = banned account. Stand up and earn your title. Stop trying to exploit the system for your own non-skilled benefit.